Forum OpenACS Q&A: Re: Any comment from the community?
Well, I start to use XoTCL already quite a lot. I offered to write the code that lets you edit the templates and css files, yet was stopped by Don who wants to clean up the current issues with templating and CSS before going down that road.You can't be "stopped by Don" because "Don" doesn't control the project.
We are both members of the OCT.
What you meant to say, but for some reason forgot to say, though I can't understand why (since you know the process, and how it works) ...
"My peers (one of whom is Don) did not adopt my changes"
Malte, I like you. We've drunk beer together. We've talked together about the project many times.
Don't misrepresent reality this way.
Of course, you may complain (rightly) that some core members think that my opinion carries more weight than yours, but that's very different than what you represent with your statement above.
Don't make me an enemy, Malte. That would be stupid.
Now to the topic at hand: You are the prime guardian against whatever I come up with. You stop me before I TIP certain processes. You are the one who threatens to veto things, so please bear with me for saying that you stopped that process. And yes, your opinion carries more weight, but does it really matter to me?
I mean, why are you guys (and this includes some others like Tom Jackson and Frank Bergmann, to name the most serious culprits in my opinion) always trying to make a power game out of it. We are all in this because of a believe that the niche product OpenACS stands a chance to earn us money. The more energy is focused on bitching between core team members the weaker the toolkit will get.
Unless you haven't noticed, we should not be so arrogant to assume that we can loose people just because we do not like them. The code contribution is crucial and the number of people that really understand what is going on in OpenACS is decreasing steadily. And you have a tendency to pick "fights" and threaten to make someone your "enemy" with those people that actually do a lot to keep OpenACS afloat. I am just going to point out three of us that are still contributing.
- Frank, who is very successful and the prime contributor to OpenACS installations around the world (which we could easily verify i we only had some way of tracking that. But I could take the code from ]po[ for that, if there is interest).
- Gustaf, who has written some of the coolest applications in OpenACS and is a very valuable source in making at least my live much easier (to give a recent example: ]po[ did not have the function_args defined, which prevented xotcl from generating the class functions. Within four hours since my e-mail he wrote a script that took the PG catalog and created the SQL statements so I could us XoTCL xo::db::sql::im_project new instead of the PL/SQL. And that was on a Sunday.).
- Myself. Though you might argue about my value to the community, but I let people decide on that. What I can say though is that I am probably the only one who is working and has seen the code from the all the major OpenACS applications and products and worked with most of the OpenACS companies out there. So I get a pretty good overview where they are at, how they are struggling and why the contribution to OpenACS is, well, limited.
Therefore, could you please check your attitude before posting to the forums as the style is really offensive and when outsiders look at the founder of the project posting like you do they won't see OpenACS in the good light that it deserves. And sorry for being sometimes a little bit frustrated with you personally but you are the guardian against most of my ideas and I don't think it makes sense for me to put everything into a TIP. I love to have beer with and talk about the future of the project. And I don't mind having a strong and opposing opinion on some points. But I don't want to spend the energy on fighting and as it really isn't that important to me anymore I will just have it your way.
A guy once said why his marriage broke: "I was too tired for apologizing". And, to be honest, I am at that point, so I should probably stop caring that much where the community is going as a whole and just help with my knowledge those companies which use OpenACS to make an impact.
So, do I want you to be my enemy: No.
Does it matter if you decide to be it: Not really.
I mean, why are you guys (and this includes some others like Tom Jackson and Frank Bergmann, to name the most serious culprits in my opinion) always trying to make a power game out of it. We are all in this because of a believe that the niche product OpenACS stands a chance to earn us money. The more energy is focused on bitching between core team members the weaker the toolkit will get.
Wow! How exactly do I make a power game out of anything? The only power here is committed code. If by a power game, you mean that I complain loudly when you and others force everyone else to follow your mostly ill-conceived code, okay. At some point everyone just gives up and says okay, just do it. Everytime I install a new OpenACS system, my original packages need to be modified, even though they only use the most basic conventions in OpenACS.
This is a great way to drive folks away, because if they ever decide to upgrade, they discover the pain involved and that gives them the opportunity to try something else.
But I guess simply informed comment from me, a user of OpenACS, is a power game. Why should users be able to comment? Should only developers who contribute code have a say? What if the developers are morons? Contributing moron code doesn't earn any points from the user perspective. Contributions which force users to do unnecessary work doesn't earn any points either.
If I was into a power game, I would be trying to commit all my code instead of talking about it as an example. But I agree with the community standards: pick one way of doing things and go with that. Remember that standard? Well it went out the window a long time ago, and Don has probably given up reminding everyone about it. Don actually has to be nice from time to time and work with people with different agendas. Usually I don't.
If I step over the line, someone lets me know, usually in terms like those above. Hey, usually they are right.
My working theory is that OpenACS core has issues, but it was put together pretty well. It works. Any change has the potential to make it not work. Developers who try to minimize this fact are dangerous. Developers who fail to consider the impact of their changes on current users are dangerous. Developers who think developers are more important than users are dangerous.
Power means you can force someone to do something they would rather not do. One way to do that here is to commit code which forces others to do work. Another way is to be able to prevent such changes. But, you can always make changes to your own copy, so this type of power doesn't prevent anyone from doing what they want.
