Forum OpenACS Q&A: offtopic: jabber license & history

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Posted by David Kuczek on
In the past couple weeks I read around jabber.org, jabber.com, josl,
mailing lists etc.

I might be wrong, but the atmosphere over there is completely
different than here at openacs... Although Jabber gets a lot of
publicity, the development at jabber.org doesn't look to be too active.

To me (*very subjective* and maybe too little research) it looks like
some folks started of Jabber with a tricky license (josl) named it
open source, took all they could get from the community and finally
ran away with the direction of opening up a company that doesn't have
that much in common with open source anymore!

Has anyone more info on this?

Doesn't a licence like the josl fool the idea of open source?

If I am right that it does, I understand the huge importance of the
licensing part of the gpl: You have to release your code under the gpl
whenever you start to license a program derived from gpl'ed code.

I have the impression that nobody realy wants to develop on a project,
which could be bundled by Jabber Inc. into a proprietary product!

I haven't seen consulting companies grow around jabber.org either.
Openacs is a great example for consulting companies fostering the
improvement of the code and still winning financially!

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Posted by Talli Somekh on
David,

It turns out that I'm a member of the Jabber Foundation by an amazing and curious chance of signing up out of interest long ago. As a result, I've been privy to many a flame fest on the Jabber Foundation list regarding what you've posted.

While it's true that the Jabber license is odd and not entirely clear (it may be Open Source, but isn't Free), it is *not* a product of a company. IIRC, the JOSL doesn't contain any copy-left protection of the code, the part of the GPL that specifies that one must "share and share alike" when distributing apps.

Jabber, Inc was the first company that built itself around the Jabber server. It also moved quickly to trademark the word Jabber. Of course, this had various levels of response, from "how dare they???" to "that's cool, they've contributed enough."

Sound familiar? ;)

But Jabber, Inc has been very helpful in giving back to the community and they've also pushed the system very hard. There's a lot of antagonism between smaller companies trying to work in the Jabber community and Jabber, Inc, which is seen as trying to co-opt everything. It's a problem every free and/or open source community faces, and one that always gets pretty testy.

Anyway, Jabber is different because it's not clear what the hell it is. For some it's an IM technology, for others it's an XML transport protocol and for others it's all of this stuff combined. There are some really top notch Jabber hackers doing interesting things, and there are also a huge number of script kiddies.

So while it may not seem that there's a lot of development, it's probably just a low signal-to-noise. Also, it's a result of people using Jabber to do everything under the sun.

Jabber is a cool tech, though, and worth keeping an eye on.

talli

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Posted by David Kuczek on
I just read an article from O'Reilly on "working withou copyleft"...

http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/a/policy/2001/12/12/transition.html

"We have received more corporate contributions, which generally are submitted by experienced developers and are of a high quality, on projects without copyleft."

It would be nice to have some numbers on this issue! I am wondering how much contribution has been done by developers of jabber before and after the foundation of Jabber Inc. This would be a nice research topic!

As I was looking around the jabber java applet this will be my example:

1. It was written under josl by David Scott who has an email address at Webb Inc. (Investor of Jabber Inc.)

2. There has been no development on it for more than a year, although there are still open issues.

3. Some month ago Jabber Inc. released a java webclient allowing http polling which could be an enhanced version of the former javaApplet.

4. Jabber Inc. released a JEP and *not* the code for the http polling issue, describing what their main problems were.

5. Nobody picked up this issue until today. Peter Millard replied to a question of mine with the words:

"Not yet :) I'm hoping someone will get motivated and write up an open-source implementation. The protocol and approach that Jabber, Inc. used is documented in this information JEP: http://www.jabber.org/jeps/jep-0025.html"

6. I have the impression (maybe again very *subjective*) that nobody really *wants* to pick up this issue, because of the fear that his code might go straightly into Jabber Inc.'s code and still not be released!

Well, the real issue from an economical perspective is: How many jobs are created by open source and which license is best suited?

Still a nice research topic!

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Posted by Tom Jackson on

Jabber is actually a relatively light weight messaging and presence protocol, in compairison to the new RFCs that cover messaging and presence. However, it is also either poorly documented or poorly understood, and the use of xml appears to be much more trouble than it is worth.

It is difficult to compare the Jabber community to the OACS. Maybe you could compare it to something like Mozilla. I don't know for sure, but I bet there are not a bunch of consulting companies based on Mozilla.