Forum OpenACS Q&A: Re: Greenpeace.org nominated for Webby-Awards

One issue is that I'm not sure anyone can claim they see the world as it really is. Well, it's human nature or rather a side effect inherent in our languages to claim that our view of the world is "the way it is". Korzybski postulated that this is an effect of confusing the language with the territory. This view, which was later refined by Bateson and other Cyberneticians expresses that the only thing that the mind is capable of holding is a "map of the territory". Unfortunately too often we confuse the map for the territory. So in effect we conflict and fence with the depiction - the map.

It is indeed unfortunate that we rarely ask how the 'thing' we describe differs from the word(s) used to describe it. But what motivation is there to get people to really question their models of reality? From the governments point of view of maintaining a "manageable society" - none. Politicians and their rhetoric love group words like liberation, equality, cooperate and these words are rubbed together endlessly - but what is really meant?? One example of this is provided by Hampden-Turner. If you consider an ideological dispute in which one party says -"I'm an individualist therefore I must fight collectivism", while another party answers - "As a Cooperatist I must fight selfishness". They each speak as though enbodiments of these ideas are going to trip of each others tongues to beat the other into submission. But there is neither "substance nor essence" to the individuality and Cooperation is no "sacred object inhabiting the soul". All that there is, is a pattern of generally agreed upon differences which we have identified with codes. In Hampden-Turner's words - "The word 'cooperative' and a living cooperative community have a structural relationship similar to one inch to one mile on a road map, save that ideological maps are rarely as reliable!" So if the Individualist and Cooperatist question their models, they might find that indeed the individualst can cooperate while the Cooperatist may find that indeed competition is truly wonderful and both may find that they can accomodate their mind maps to include the others territory. Not a good scenario for many government administrations...

As the mind continues to codify and classify objects, it becomes increasingly important to question the very logic that is used to engage in codifying and classifying our 'reality'. Othewise, as Korzybski and Bateson pointed out, the mind itself divides into "exclusive fragments", we confuse the word with the thing, the mapper with the mapped and this leads to the belief that the mind must contain no 'contradiction'.

Nevitt Sanford and Bateson postulated the theory of Schismogenesis which says that there is a growing split in the structure of human interaction and the ideas communicated. As we look at much of what is happening in todays world, I have to concede that they are indeed right and anyone that is at all concerned with humanity can hardly afford to look away. Andrew points out that other Mammals have their own internal models of reality formed by whatever their sensory abilities might be e.g. bats. We are limited by nature to forming a map of reality as well by our own perceptive apparatus and our need to classify and codify the world we live in."The interpretations of 9/11 as a martyrdom and as a war by terrorists are both descriptions of internal models in incomplete congruence with reality. Objectively, it was an event involving the deaths of thousands, made 'meaningful' only by those internal models of how things 'really' work."Much of the Arab world holds a view that for them is congruent with reality as well. This is a perfect example of the growing split between human interactions and what actually gets communicated as concepts/ideas. The issue is not so much the "incongruence with reality" but rather with the fragmentary, exclusive nature of the ideologies expressed.

What does it take to get people to challenge the logic used to map the world? This is a tough one. I have seen people make major change due to extreme stress conditions as well as from seemingly (for us) minor events. I think that the issue of what causes change is as complex as the human mind is. I don't think you can reduce it down to a couple of options. On the one hand #1 implies that we don't have a choice and therefore must either seek out or wait for destiny to bring something in our direction which will "change" us. The other seems to imply a lack of will or morality. Is "change" even the best word to use here? I'm thinking out loud here, but I can't help but wonder the role of education in all of this.

Mike - I agree that the 404 page is really cool... Well, its interesting how this thread went from the Webby awards Greenpeace nomination to a discussion on epistemology, bats, human politics and cybernetics. 😊) I think while all this is off-topic, it does show what an intesting and diverse bunch our OACS community really is. I'm fairly new to this community, but I'm really enjoying being a part. I really look forward to increasing participation and interaction with everyone here. 😊)