Forum OpenACS Development: Re: Tcl Web Services Toolkit: TWiST

I guess there isn't a cure for your approach to these issues. Your reasoning is pretty amazing. I provide software which allows you to expose an internal API as a web service. That is what the software does. The software allows you to do this as easily as possible, and it doesn't make any assumptions about how you should do it. Now, you want it to impose assumptions upon all users so that you are happy. Next week, somebody says: "Hey I already quote my html, now it is double quoted! What's up with that?"

So to be clear: there is no way to "catch" this. Do you even remember the 'noquote' discussions which have taken place over the years right here on OpenACS? This is exactly the same issue.

Another mistake you are making is your belief that ad_proc somehow has more information about types, especially _return types_, than TWiST, especially with regard to the requirements of WSDL/SOAP. Data typing, construction and validation are way beyond what is available in OpenACS, it has exact information on every type. It can validate every type it handles. It can construct documents of a given type. But Tcl itself does not carry type information. There is no way to tell if incoming data has been quoted once, twice or never. Maybe this is available in some language, but not Tcl.

TWiST and WSDL are about 'interoperability', not 'bells and whistles', especially cracked bells and broken whistles.

It is somewhat amazing that you fixed this for yourself in exactly the correct way, by adding the typical method for handling this, and yet that isn't enough for you. You shouldn't be bothered to think at all. You wish for TWiST to use magic to guess what you want it to do.

Maybe another example: XML or XHTML. The more you restrict the functionality of a component, the more generally useful it becomes. The software becomes very simple when it doesn't have to guess at what the humans wanted to do, but couldn't figure out how to do. TWiST isn't smart, and that is simple. You are the one which has to be smart.

Here's an idea: if OpenACS truly has all the information you need to do this, then there is no issue at all, simply write your procedure to return what you want! Or, add a quote flag to your own internal API if it doesn't have this information, then use the flag inside the TWiST <ws>proc to return the correctly quoted text, or optionally a CDATA wrapped, but unquoted text.

I apologize for my tone, but you keep bring up examples of your own failings and blaming them on TWiST. If you want my tone to change, look a little deeper into the issue prior to revealing your thoughts. That's my feedback to you. TWiST is not a cure for not thinking.

I've already come up with the title of the thread you need to start about your improvements to TWiST (Why TWiST Sucks, and What I'm Going to do to Fix It). I promise not to complain in that thread about your ideas about your software. But can we stay on topic here: I'm not soliciting feedback on improvements, I have a whole list of them myself that are first in line. I'm very interested in bugs and if you give enough details I can fix them, or offer a temporary work-around.