Forum .LRN Q&A: Using web logs for learning

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Posted by Bill Ives on
I think web logs may offer a significant way to link knowledge management to learning, a potential that has largely been unrealized so far despite the obvious connection and a lot of hype on the issue. The .LRN developers had the foresight to include this functionality along with the other suite of tools. It may be useful to share experiences using web logs in learning activities so we can all get better at it. I have not had a chance to direclty use .LRN and I am eager to learn about this potential from others that have.
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Posted by Rafael Calvo on
Welcome to OpenACS Bill.

I have seen a few research papers on using blogs in elearning, and I agree they have great potential. I think there was a paper in the last Ausweb Conference.

cheers

Rafael

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Posted by Andrew Grumet on
Hi Bill,

At Sloan we've launched a new (and non-public, alas) "class notes" site where alumni can post updates about themselves.  We think of it as a sort of living version of the monthly or yearly newsletter.  There is one weblog per class.  Members of the class of '99 are invited to post to the "Class of '99 Notes" site and so on for the other classes.  One of the goals of this system is to bring a greater sense of connectedness to the alumni community by making one another's presence more immediately felt.  It's a bit early to measure our success -- the site has only been up for a month --- but in that time we've received submissions from classes ranging from '59 to '99.

On a lighter note you might find Room 209 (http://209.typepad.com/) interesting.

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Posted by Rocael Hernández Rizzardini on
.LRN has weblogs, so out of the box you can you use it, I agree that has a big potential for the learning process.
In the other hand, will be really good when the COP (community of practice / KMS) is ready, then such tools will become more powerful since you'll be able to rate the value of a given post for later searchs.
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Posted by Bruce Spear on
Interesting question!  I've little experience using logs, so I'm curious to know what their learning qualities might be.  For classroom work I've been concentrating on the use of forums as with forums you can set students into debate with each other, put them to work on a common project, or ask them to explore together.  In this way, you get the benefit of their wanting to work together, present for each other, discuss with each other, etc.  I guess I'm confessing to a gap in my understanding, or maybe a mere preference: I think of blogs as a single, short, opinionated voice which, in the context of the classroom, leaves little room for debate: everyone has a right to their own opinion and, following Bartleby, need not need the opinions of others.  Debating or problem-solving contexts, in contrast, invite the play of cooperation and critical scrutiny.  Maybe I've a not-so-secret aversion to poetry and am wedded to work teams?  Nope, it's just that when I write poetry (in my case, photograph), I go off and do it alone and have no need of the web until I've got something to present, and then, it is a presentation for others.  So, Bill, what kinds of learning activities do you have in mind for blogs?  I'm all ears! -- B
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Posted by Bill Ives on
This is great. I will have to look to see what my university is doing. While it might invite chaos, I wonder what cross-class communication might achieve. This could take several forms. While many of my college friends were in my class, there were also others in the three preceeding classes and the three following classes who were on campus at the same time.  When I look at class notes, I always scan these years in addition to my own. On a different note, what about cross-generational connection where an older class becomes the mentors to a current class. This could occur on a set schedule - like those about to come back for their 25th reunion link to the current freshman or sophomore class and therefore they might want to meet some of their mentorees when back on campus.  There is also sufficient separation to have a cross-generation perspective.  I am sure there are other possible connections to make but probably best to learn from the current effort before getting too creative.
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Posted by Bill Ives on
Thanks for this. The value ratings will be great for the searcher but will they inhibit the poster who is afraid of getting a bad rating in public? I do not have the answer, just a question to consider in the design. When will the COP funcitons be ready?
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Posted by Rocael Hernández Rizzardini on
Well, COP is beyond just ratings, but I think will be not so hard to make the end user to decide whether he want to be rated or not, etc, since it could be a stopper as you said.

Jeff knows more about the release of COP.

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Posted by Bill Ives on
Response to Bruce Spear - (as an aside - I just posted two other responses to specific replies to my original posting on learning and blogs but they seem to fall at the end of the entire thread rather that after the reply I was responding to as in a regular treaded discussion - not sure if I am just misuing the tool - but I will indicate who I am responding to, as I did on the one in future replies.) Bruce you raise an excellent point. I am new to blogs and started two recently as an experiment.  They appear to hold great promise for a number of functions and are certainly easy to use.  It seems that blogs, with their extensive search functions, are designed for more exposure and distribution than dialog which is consisitent with your point.  While dialog is also enabled, the more public the web blog, the less likely that dialog will occur within the blog.  In the case of my experiment, an unscientific sample of two by the same author, dialog has been generated but so far it has occurred more outside the blog than within it. Chat sessions with forums, were dialog is the first priority and broad exposure, an available, but secondary function, because of the more limited search, still seems to get better dialog going within it.  But then I could easily be wrong here and it may just be that people are more used to chat than blogs for dialog or I am not yet fully using the medium to its advantage in my blogs. In one example on the effectiveness of blogs offered by Kathleen Gilroy of the Otter Group, it seems using web blog technology for a very focused target audience around a specific task, completing a course, combines the best of both. You are driving up usage because of the exposure features of the blog yet doing it in a traditional discussion group setting which is designed to encourage dialog between group members on a common task. I have used collaboration in learning in a number of situations prior to the introduction of blogs.  They seem to hold promise for this but we will certainly have to look closely at what works and what does work and why.
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Posted by Bruce Spear on
I would be VERY curious to have the links to the studies being referred to here, such as the Gilroy article.
I should say that my understanding is not from a survey of how forums and blogs are being used, but from an analysis of how they might be used effectively based on pre-web studies in the teaching of writing at the university level.
For example, the behavioralist studies show increases in learning due to the reinforcements of group work and informal conversations to the point that, when it comes to writing, there is some empirical evidence showing that students write LESS well after attending a series of lectures, a bit better when spending the same amount of time doing fill-in-the-blank exercises, and a whole lot better having spent their time drinking coffee with their pals and talking about it.
Studies in the cognitive psychology tradition focus on how differently stories can be told and learned from in the company of others and where the learning problem is to move students from compulsive/authoritarian to more relativist psychologies and worldviews.
Hence, I would explore forum use as it might be integrated into successful and pedagogically-sound learning activities.
I also like the forum because I am in Germanay.  More than all other portlets, the forum most closely resembles the academic seminar: the sanctum sanctorium of academic freedom and learning, the neo-humanist pearl in the middle of absolutism.
In addition, many here see e-learning in terms I characterize as "reserve desk, typewriters, and toilet paper", meaning as a solution to the Bologna Agreement and the B.A. whereby we can dispose of student claims to university access on the cheap, substituting capital for labor, and then get rid of them.
In this context, the seminar is the royal road to the professorial unconscious, and I am shooting for the high ground: I want them to learn how to use it for their best students, and precisely as understand Carl Robert Blesius has doctors contributing to forums on dermatology: because forums can contribute to the formation of strong peer groups chracterized by diversity of opinion, high disciplinary standards, and the love and rewards of a good conversation.
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Posted by Dave Bauer on
You might be interested in my Education and Technology news aggregator: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/mynews/26201

Some interesting links from there today:

Scholars Discover Weblogs Pass Test as Mode of Communication http://kairosnews.org/node/view/3779

Portfolios to Webfolios and Beyond: Levels of Maturation http://www.educause.edu/pub/eq/eqm04/eqm0423.asp

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Posted by Bruce Spear on
Excellent, Excellent, EXCELLENT!  This blog of yours returns my question in spades.  What a gold mine!  Thanks!
Bruce
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Posted by Bill Ives on
response to Bruce Spear - I learned of Kathleen Gilroy's work through a response to a posting on my own blog - http://billives.typepad.com/portals_and_km/2004/05/since_the_begin.html I would have pasted it into this forum the first time but have not figurerd out how to embed a link into this forum yet. Hope this pasted URL works.  Kathleen is the CEO at www.ottergroup.com.
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Posted by Bill Ives on
I would be interested in the study that found students learned more from talking to each other that lectures. It parallels a U.S. study that found that a vast majority of employees felt they gained most of their work-related knowledge by chance from informal conversations, mostly stories, and not from procedure manuals or formal training (Wensley, 1998).  The complete reference and related discussion in a posting in my blog - http://billives.typepad.com/portals_and_km/2004/05/stories_and_org.html  Thanks for mentioning this. I was trained as a cognitive psychologist and looked at how media influence thinking.  However, I still am interested in what the behaviorist might say.
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Posted by Alfred Essa on
Bill, We will post some information soon on how we are using weblogs in executive education at MIT Sloan.
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Posted by Kathleen Gilroy on
Andrew Grumet let me know that this discussion was underway.  As I commented in Bill Ive's blog, we have had some success using weblogs in lieu of forum discussions tools in our elearning programs.  Our response and participation rates are way up, which I attribute to the public nature of blogs.  When our students post, they know that they will be visible to an important community of peers (and their bosses and professors).  This visibility factor substantially increases their motivation to post.  I am not alone in finding this:  in my own blog, I write about a professor at the University of Maryland who has also had a big jump in participation rates:  http://otterlearn.typepad.com/blogkathleen/2004/02/matthew_kirsche.html

Kirschenbaum, who started blogging a year ago, now uses blogs for his classes, which include ENGL467: "The Computer and the Text: Hypermedia as Critical Expression."

"Three weeks into the semester, there are 125 student comments on my class blog," he said. "There's much less discussion on a course e-mail list than on a blog."

In addition to his class blogs, he also maintains a personal blog, which focuses primarily on his research and teachings.

"It opens up other aspects of what I do to my students," Kirschenbaum said. "I have found that it's not just about what I wrote, but about what people said back."

I corresponded with Matt Kirschenbaum about why he thinks there has been so much more discussion on his weblog and not on the bulletin boards. Here's what he said:

Hi Kathleen,

Couple of reasons I think: one, like all the rest of us, my students now get a lot more email than they used to. Course-related mail gets mixed in with the usual jumble of spam and whatever else. All too easy just to hit the delete key. Two, the blog allows them to see their ideas instantly published on the Web. Email is a closed world, a self-contained loop between the instructor and the other students. With the blog, the fourth wall is always open. Best, Matt

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Posted by Don Baccus on
Hmmm...Matt's comments are interesting, but are they relevant to our tools?  As you know from using our forums, you only get e-mail if you request alerts and, just like the blog software he's using, forum posts here are published instantaneously on the web.  I can't imagine that's not true of his forums as well.

Maybe forums are too structured, being organized into topics for discussion?

As far as whether or not rating systems might deter people from posting ... evidence from sites such as Slashdot suggest that there's no rating system in existence that will stop people from making fools of themselves.

Of course widely read internet forums like Slashdot are virtually anonymous ... it might be different in an educational environment where many people know each other and one might be embarassed by a low rating.

As Roc says, allowing the poster to turn off ratings on their contribution would be possible.

Another possibility might be to only allow the rating of "exceptional" ... not having one's contribution rated at all in this context might not be as negative as (say) getting one star out of five.

Questions like these are why a general ratings package needs to be ... generalized.

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Posted by Don Baccus on
Kathleen ... was Matt perhaps talking about e-mail listservs rather than web-based forums?  This thought struck me after I posted above.

Also ... nice to see you here!

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Posted by Bruce Spear on
Wow!  Kathleen!
I learn from you: what a terrific site you have!  I'm totally behind your approach: we are reading from the same page.
I simply love the comments you have made and collected in your blog: it is a very rich window into the individual and group psychology that I think is everything to understanding how users might use LMS systems.
The references to theater, self-presentation, and creative interaction are simply exquisite.  The closest I myself have come such moments have been in highly-structured group work informed by modern cybernetics.
As for my interest in forums and ignorance of blogs: I'd say you are operating in a completely different communicative universe than I find here in Berlin -- though I hope to prove myself wrong.
First, we have very few LMS systems at the FU in general, and most of what passes for "e-learning" here is the creating of "modules" -- electronic versions of texts packaged in Pavlovian form -- and these are indeed designed to occupy the masses.  I think much of it has to do with the German university: it is under-capitalized, its relationships to society are  ambivalent, and it has nothing of the dynamics of the US system.  Somewhere online I've got an article by Mitchell Ash and Daniel Fallon who make the institutional comparison.
On a deeper level, you are assuming a respect for individuals and a high premium on personal expression and communication that, I'd guess for profound historical reasons, does not pertain here.
Let me put it like this: you write like you could take Ben Franklin and a popular enlightenment that began sometime in the mid 18th century U.S. for granted.  But the Enlightnment here in Berlin was an elite affair, including Voltaire, King Frederick and the boys for six weeks in the summer in a closed circle in Sanssoucci.  It touched the locals much, much later and was all but completely compromised by absolutism.  Weimar was a brief flower between immense destruction.  Only recently have the universities begun to escape that terrible history.
That is, you BEGIN with the assumption that people expect to learn from each other as much as from the instructor.  It would be a very successful class for me here to witness that by the END of a course.
In my view, this is not a fault of individuals -- and I have many colleagues who talk about and prize such communications -- but of a complex society whose relationship to modernity has long been ambivalent and compromised.
So, I'm so grateful to everyone on this thread: it is a pleasure to find myself in such good company!
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Posted by Alfred Essa on
We (MIT Sloan) use Kathleen and her company Otter Group for delivering some of our premier custom executive education courses. She is doing pioneering work with web logs with one of our current clients.
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Posted by Kathleen Gilroy on
Dear Bruce,  Thanks for the nice post.  My work has always really been about the belief that people are fundamentally smart (and wise) and have important things to learn from one another.  I am interested in your view that in Berlin you do not have the right cultural basis for this approach to learning.  It has been a struggle to get our clients (and sometimes our participants) to re-frame their models of learning away from the top-down, authoritarian classroom model (even with its Socratic methods) towards an egalitarian, peer-to-peer model.  But if you can get people moving towards peer-to-peer, powerful benefits emerge that cannot be ignored.  In a program that we are managing for the Sloan School at MIT, the discussion on the weblog has opened up very interesting threads on complicated and important issues for the client, a large financial services firm.  I think this is working because we consciously reframed the effort as a peer-to-peer learning program and then built all of our tools and learning management systems (in our case, mostly the people who are doing the management) around the goal of peer-to-peer exchange.  The discussion has been so rich that it is now attracting the attention of the firm's top executives.  I guess my point is that it does not just happen naturally.  It has to be a conscious shift by all parties.  And we sweetened things by offering mini Ipods (pink is my favorite color) to the best posters.
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Posted by Bill Ives on
Response to Kathleen Gilroy: I was excited with Kathleen’s comments on egalitarian and peer-to-peer learning. I agree completely with her and especially like the way she has articulated the concept. I want to share an example that occurred in 1997-1998 using the technology of the day. I apologize that this is longer than most forum postings and I will drop much of the context for this reason.

A large health insurance organization was changing their IT platform to web-based and, more importantly, moving to a proactive customer service business model away from the traditional transaction model. This effort involved learning new technology and new business processes and attitudes.  The traditional authoritarian classroom model for training call center workers took 12 weeks and it was then still 9 months before they became fully efficient.  Neither of these time frames was acceptable to transform the entire work force so we integrated knowledge management and learning to both drive down classroom time and decrease the learning curve.

So we decided to turn the traditional learning model on its head. We decided that we were not going to train people at all.  Instead, we were going to put all the procedures, information, and knowledge to provide customer service and process claims in a KM system available on the job.  We made the workers responsible for their own learning but gave them what they needed to do the job. However, we did not just turn them loose on customers.  We put them in a two week simulation where they were given claims to process and access to the KM system to support their efforts. Other off-duty employees called in, simulating real customers. A facilitator, not a teacher, was there to answer questions.  In order to graduate you needed to use the system to actually do your new job. Those who got through quickly were then asked to help slow learners, encouraging team work.

We also knew that not all the procedures would be documented in the initial efforts and not all those that were would be right. So we created a simple wizard to have employees write their thoughts on procedures they found undocumented as well as their ideas on how to do those that were covered even better. We gave them examples of how to right good procedures, in a help file, so they could better respond to this task. In the simulation they were required to use this wizard to encourage it use on the job. An organization was set up to evaluate and process their suggestions.

According to participant feedback this proved to be the most popular learning program that most participants had ever experienced. At one point when the new overall work IT system was being introduced sometime prior to release, the employees got much more excited about the KM system that we introduced along with the IT system.  It even got a standing ovation after a long day of demos and employees said they wanted it right now, even if the overall IT system was not ready.

What excited business leaders was the significant reduction in classroom time and the reduction in learning curve, reducing costs and bringing forward the benefits of the major transformation of the business.  What excited the employees was the egalitarian approach Kathleen discussed, although we did not have the benefit of her excellent peer-to-peer framing of the issue at the time.  I have seen this occur, in part, in other places but this was the most dramatic. It would be even better in today’s tools but worked fine in the old ones.

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Posted by Alfred Essa on
Michael Schrage, MIT Media Lab, has an article in CIO magazine on web logs "inside" the firewall. Schrage describes how web logs can be used for IT project management, but his point is more general. Insofar as web logs promote better communication and better management, they also foster learning in an organization.

Schrage:

"Why wouldn't it make sense for an IT project manager to post a blogor "plog" (project log)to keep her team and its constituents up-to-date on project issues and concerns? Is it inherently inappropriate for an individual to post constructive observations about a project's progress? IT organizations that can effectively use blogs as managerial tools (or communication resources) are probably development environments that take both people and their ideas seriously."

"Frankly, if I were involved in an ERP rollout, I would be genuinely interested in accessing the blog of a user who actually had to cope with the implementation. His comments would likely have a salutary effect on me. Similarly, if I'm a sales manager at a pharmaceutical giant, I would be interested in occasionally browsing the blog of my IT counterpart who's installing the sales-force automation system. To be sure, I'm motivated more by curiosity than by the lust to interfere. But I've always liked the idea of relatively painless ways to get up to speed on issues. Plogs seem ideally designed to permit that."

At MIT Sloan, I use a .LRN community to manage IT projects. We have created a projects dashboard and forum/web log for each project. PMs provide updates and everyone in the department can access all project logs. An obvious extension is to use web logs to share project information with our clients and partners.