Forum OpenACS Q&A: Can we have a new web/db forum?

Okay, maybe I'm dreaming a little dream of my own, but I agree with Jerry, that there was a lot more diverse traffic when the web/db was still hosted under photo.net.

On the other hand though, we will probably see a lot of crosspostings between the two forums. Reason: A lot of ArsDigita employees will post answers on their web/db forum {as they are required to, if that policy has not changed}. And they are a serious lot of good developers who might help out in different ways than the community.

P.S.: Non Tech Forum, PLEASE 😉

https://openacs.org/poll

I am really curious where in the aD Employee Reeducation Manual (no,
this does not exist) it says that aD employees have to post to aD's
own web/db forum. I have never heard about such a policy, nor do I
expect to get any grief over posting here...

As a big believer in open-source, I am saddened about the hostility
towards aD that has been going around this bboard lately. It has
certainly taken off some of the idealism I had for OS.

Getting negative feedback is something that shows that people care
enough to spend time telling you what they think is wrong (or
sometimes just telling you that something *is* wrong). If
you care and want to participate, go ahead and respond! You can start
worrying when people stop sending you feedback.

Getting constructive negative feedback in one thing. Entering into a conversation with the feeling that everything you say is going to be viewed with suspicion and interpreted as negatively as possible is another thing entirely. The latter is what I've come to expect, simply by watching how various people in the community react to postings by AD engineers and AD decisions.

David,

Malte also may be referring to this thread on web/db: http://www.arsdigita.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg%5fid=000cGU&topic%5fid=web%2fdb&topic=

In it Dave Menninger says:

• David Tropiano (dtropian@arsdigita.com) will be monitoring the bulletin boards and making sure that messages are answered in a timely fashion.
• David will route messages as appropriate to either product management or development. Joe Lichtenberg's group of product managers will handle questions about product direction and Jeff Teeters in development will deal with the technical questions.
• I will personally spend more time interacting with the community. I began by meeting with Peter Vessenes of Ybos a couple weeks ago and I will do my best to keep informed of and involved in the discussions on the bboards.

This doesn't say that aD employees are required to read the bboards, but it does say that questions will be answered in a timely manner by aD.

Personally, I think your message could be read as hostile towards Malte. We can all point fingers about hostility, but it doesn't really get us anywhere.

It was just the management thing that brought me creeps, and some amusing (to say the least) postings by aD engineers at web/db (anyone recall "JAVA!!!"?)

As a poster, I want my posts to be read by a wide audience.  These days I believe that that wide audience is over here at the OpenACS site.  I feel the OpenACS momentum growing, and I want to take advantage of that.  In contrast, when I ask a question in the ArsDigita web/db forums, I wonder these days who will actually see it.  It feels like that community is dying.

These days when I ask a question or make an announcement, I have to fight the desire to post at both sites.  And there are a sizable number of posts which have been posted at both sites.  So why do folks feel the need to post in both places?  With no disrespect intended to aD, I suggest many folks are confused about where to post.  Like it or not, the aD forums have a much more corporate feel to them.  (It may be that eye on the home page.)

I definitely feel that the crowd has been driven away from the web/db forum.  It may be RIFs, it may be that may be because web/db grew out of a individual/community effort and became hosted by a company (and credibility wise, that hasn't been too good historically for any piece of media).  It may be that with the shift to Java and the understandable emphasis on big dollar clients, aD has moved away from the community and forum posters can sense that there is just a diversion of interests.  An OpenACS website will bring some of that crowd back, and it may make it easier for former aD employees to participate.

But anyway, as a member of the OpenACS community, I want to make the OpenACS community stronger.

You mention that aD gets the credit for hosting web/db.  I have answered many many questions on the aD websites, and aD has certainly benefited from my efforts.  But aD doesn't need my help, or rather, I'd prefer to give my help to a group that's organized more as peers.  As a member of the OpenACS community, I'd rather give my efforts to getting OpenACS that credit.

Recently we've heard how the numbers of php groupware downloads swamp both acs and openacs downloads.  I believe having a web/db and/or non technical forum at the OpenACS site will be positive for the community.  It will make OpenACS more a destination.  It will enhance the OpenACS reputation and brand name.  As folks come to visit to ask about style sheets, FLASH, MySQL, real audio or what have you, they will stop by and take a drink of the OpenACS kool-aid.  And soon, we will see the OpenACS being discussed and distributed with the big kids.

Look, I'm not saying that aD should take the web/db down, I'm saying it has nothing to do with aD.  I'm saying that the forum topics at the OpenACS are too limiting for the OpenACS community.  OpenACS Q&A, OpenACS 4.0 Design Q&A, OpenACS CMS Q&A.  It's not enough.  Aren't there enough web/db questions and answers out there that we can have our own forum?

There were couple discussions on whether some parts of ACS 5.0 would be closed source etc. which neither improved the relationship of the "community" and aD.

As far as I heard from some objective people at the Munich office and from my brother who has seen some parts of ACS Java 5.0, this product will be *really* interesting.

I believe that the sympathy will come back to aD as soon as they please the community with that new product and the community sees what the developers have been working on for quite some time. (And change their logo back to "aD", which is way better than the Big Brother Is Watching You Eye that looks like the symbol of a pseudo religious organization 😊

This having been said I also voted for the web/db bboard being moved to OpenACS, because it will not be of aD's core interest as soon as ACS Java 5.0 will be released. So why don't move it to a place where the tcl dream lives on...

With respect to perceived "hostility" toward aD staff, I don' t think that is the case, but there is a lot of unease about the direction that ArsDigita has taken.  Not so much that its wrong or evil, but more that it is becoming yet another  internet software company like Vignette or Broadvision.  Open Source is perceived as a marketing strategy and less of a principle which means it can be discarded when not convenient.  This is probably what is required to take ArsDigita up to a size where it can have a IPO and the VCs make all their money, but it is not necessarily good for the development of the technology and concepts behind ACS.  "Market Driven" becomes the buzzword and stock market analysts drive your direction for better or worse.

One thing I liked about the photo.net was that the discussion covered all web/db issues, no matter that platform/system.  Everyone working in this area faces common problems no matter wher developing with ACS, Storyserver, or PHP and it is good to have a place to discuss issues without worrying about offending the company.  So yes for these reasons, I would like to see a generic web/db forum on a neutral site.  I think it is a simple matter of avoiding conflict of interest.  The aD boards remain great places for ACS developers to go for support  and it is entirely appropriate.  I think the current mix is just a bit uncomfortable as the lines are blurred between general community and corporate interests and that in itself is contributing to some distrust which is not good for any of us.

Just my humble opinion :)